P062 – Discussion With Sikh Elder



SARDAR JI: Someone who has experienced God can’t describe it.  (Implying that Dassan Dass ji is describing God and experiences in order to be regarded as a Sant and be followed.)    A Sant cant explain the experience of God.


Dassan Dass Ji: They can’t explain it fully, but they can give others a glimpse of it and direction on experiencing it for themself.


SARDAR JI: But only a true Sant knows what it is like as he is experiencing it.  And unless you are a Sant then you cant see who is a Sant.


DD: Yes only a Brahmgiani can recognise a Brahmgiani but a normal person can go to Sant Sangat and if they feel peace in mind and body then they know this is a Sant.


SARDAR JI: You can recognise a Sant from their divine life – their deeds are in line with GurMat (Guru’s Wisdom).


DD: Yes, GurBani is not less than GurMat, and a Sant is the one who has earned Gurbani – put it into practise.


SARDAR JI: And those who are not following GurMat are following their own worldy mind, own wisdom – ManMat.  People are known by what they do e.g. a person who grows crops is known as a farmer, a person who runs a shop is known as a shopkeeper.


DD: Yes, but just by looking like a farmer, one isn’t a farmer.   Only the one who follows GurMat is known as a Sant.   Understand that Gurbani is the language of God’s Realm of Truth – Sach Khand.  And Gurbani is still coming from there and you hear it when your Dassam Duar (crown chakra) is open.




DD:  A child can’t understand a rocket science problem.  A normal person can’t fully understand Gurbani until they go to Mansarovar (Ocean Of Light – God’s Realm).  But as much as a person does understand they should put into practise and earn it and earning even one shabad can take you to the ManSarovar.




SARDAR JI: Yes.  But you agree that we need to abide by GurMat – the Guru’s Wisdom.  So Guru Gobind Singh Ji said we have to be AmritDhari (taken Sikh initiation).  And these children were following that GurMat, but now got the idea from you that they don’t need to follow that and have cut their hair and eat meat.  Now you agree whatever Gurbani says we have to abide by, so Gurbani says, “sabat soorat dastar siraa.” (1)  So if you don’t believe in that you don’t believe in your Guru.  And the second point is that Gurbani says that the food you put into this body should be pure.  But, what you eat is not right.  Gurbani says, “kabeer bhaa(n)g maashhulee suraa paan jo jo praanee khaa(n)hi ||” – meaning don’t take drugs , eat fish or drink intoxicating drinks. (2)


DD:   That is Sant Kabir ji’s Bani, also read what Guru Nanak Dev Ji said that only fools argue about meat.




Point 1 – Many sikhs misquote Gurbani as above, ““sabat soorat dastar siraa” which they interpret to mean “the complete form is with a turban on your head.”   They misquote this to justify why they wear a turban and keep a long beard.  The full shabad is quite long and is Guru Arjun Dev ji educating a Muslim on how to be a true Muslim by putting emphasis on internal qualities like mercy and kindness, instead of thinking their external rituals and dress are going to please God.  This particular line is not telling us that the complete form (sabat soorat) is a turban on our head (dastar siraa).  For a start the phrase “sabat soorat” means total awareness.

From the ‘Dictionary of Guru Granth Sahib’, Surinder Singh Kohli

Sábat (from Arabic Sábit) – the whole, complete, faultless.

Soorat – mindfulness, awareness, mystical awareness of God, attention.


So Guru Arjun Dev ji is educating Muslims that their ideal of simply having a turban on the head is NOT the way of getting honoured by God, but by having total awareness of God at all times is the way.  We read that in those days a repectable Muslim would wear a turban and have an unshaven beard.  But, if they were a criminal they would be taken to court with their turban around their neck as a sign of dishonour and beard cut.  Hence, even for Muslims in those days it seems that the turban and beard were a sign of honour.  But, Gurbani is saying don’t get proud of having a turban and beard, that’s not going to get you to God – that’s not going to give you honour in God’s court, it’s where your mind is at that counts.  So make your mind always live in the total awareness of God at all times.

káiá kirdár aurat yakíná
Let good deeds be your body, and faith your bride.
rang tamásé mán hakíná
Play and enjoy the Lord’s love and delight.
nápák pák kar hadúr hadísá sábat súrat dastár sirá (12)
Purify what is impure, and let the Lord’s Presence be your religious tradition. Let your total awareness be the turban on your head. ||12||



Full shabad is here.


Point 2 –  Again this gets used by Sikhs to justify not eating meat.  It is written by Sant Kabir ji and if you read the second line as well, he is actually pointing out to those people who are doing all kinds of rituals like pilgrimages and taking fasts and taking drugs, drink and fish concoctions that they will end up far from God.  So get out of the illusion external things are going to get you to God.


kabeer bhaa(n)g maashhulee suraa paan jo jo praanee khaa(n)hi ||

theerathh barath naem keeeae thae sabhai rasaathal jaa(n)hi ||233||


Kabeer, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine.

Pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow too, they will all go to hell. ||233||




SARDAR JI:  So you need to have discipline in dress and diet according to Gurbani.


DD: Respected Sardar Sahib,  the discipline required is internal not external.  Spriritual achievement is achieved by observing inner Rehat (compliance) nothing is achieved by following outer Rehats.


SARDAR JI:  If a farmer just plants seeds without ploughing the field will he get any result?


DD:  The field he ploughs has to be of the mind, not the body.  If the five thieves don’t come under your shoes –  under your control, and your desires are not put out, then no matter what external compliance (REHAT) you observe, nothing, absolutely NO spiritual progress will  be made.


SARDAR JI:  If you don’t put good food , i.e. vegetarian food into your body, you cannot be a pure vessel.


DD: Respected Sardar Ji, half the world is eating the other half, including the vegetation you yourself are eating.  That has life in it as well.   The only way you will purify yourself is to bring the five thieves under your shoes.  You can eat as much so called pure food as you want, you will achieve no spiritual progress.  No one ever has and no one ever will.


SARDAR JI:  But in Gurbani it says that a white sheet once soiled with blood is stained, so your body is stained when you eat meat.


DD:  The astral body gets stained by bad deeds.  The physical body does not get stained by eating meat.  Gurbani talks about your Hirdha (heart centre, your inside).  Your soul, astral body, seven chakras, and spiritual doorways are part of your spirital form, not your physical form.


SARDAR JI:  So the person who has no mercy, would you call him a religious person?


DD:  Not at all, mercy (Daya) is the son of Dharam (path to union) – “daya dharam ka poot.” – Jap Ji..


SARDAR JI: So the one who kills an animal, is he showing any mercy?


DD: No, the killer is not showing any mercy.  But, the one who eats the meat that is presented to him as food, is honouring the dead animal by making use of its flesh instead of wasting food.


SARDAR JI:   (laughs!)  But, the killer only killed it for the one who ate it.  If there was no demand for the meat, the killing wouldn’t have taken place.


DD: The butcher killed it because he had karma with that animal (Baba ji also said that we have the right to kill for food – its not a bad deed).   All of these discussions about meat and turban are all shallow.  The only thing of any importance is the inner compliance (andherli rehat).  Look here, this divine soul sitting next to you, Om Ji, is not wearing any of the 5Ks, nor does he wear a turban and he is clean shaven.  He is from a Hindu family.  But, since getting the GurParsaad five years ago and earning the Gurbani and surrendering completely to the Guru who gave him Naam, he has become Sant Hirdha (enlightened soul).  So how do you explain the fact that Guru Gobind Singh ji has appeared to him in his Samadhi and given him blessings?


SARDAR JI:  That is nonsense.  Guru Gobind Singh ji said that he would not give his sacred vision (Darshan) to anyone who does not wear the 5Ks, the form of the Khalsa (Khalsa roop).


DD:  Om ji is a true Khalsa, he is pure within and that is what Guru Gobind Singh ji meant when he said Khalsa.   Guru Gobind singh ji said himself, “Atam Ras so jaaniyaa soee khalas dev.”  (Only the one who is in soul-bliss is the Khalsa.)


SARDAR JI:  You talk about Guru Gobind Singh ji, but walk in the opposite direction.


DD: Sardar Sahib ji, the Rehat of Guru Gobind Singh ji is the internal discipline that is the only way to become pure within, to enjoy Atam Ras – Soul-Bliss.  Not through external disciplines.  One needs to beat their five thieves and desires within.  If you don’t defeat Maya then you don’t clean your inner vessel no matter what you eat or what your wear.


SARDAR JI:  But, we need to have external disciplines to control ourself.


DD:  If you think you are in control then that is ego talking.  Everything is running under Akal Purakh’s control – His hukam.  Man can’t control anything.


SARDAR JI: Of course we can control ourself.


DD: It’s written in Gurbani that everything is under God’s control, “hukmai andhar sabh ko bahur hukam na koi.” – Everything is under the Hukam, there is nothing outside the Hukam. – Jap Ji.  It is only ego to say I can control something.


SARDAR JI:  (To Om Ji) Ok then can you show me Guru Gobind Singh ji?


DD:  How can anyone show you Guru Gobind Singh ji?  You have to clean up your inner vessel like the Guru Ji said then He can show Himself to you.


SARDAR JI:  Look I am not a fake, I believe in Guru Gobind Singh ji and I am doing what he said.




DD:  This is your mistaken thinking, no one here is a fake.  This sangat is doing what Gurbani says.    Gurbani’s support is Naam.  We are doing Naam simran and that’s it, nothing else.


SARDAR JI: Well if you’re not fake then why are you not doing Simran in the Gurdwara?  In this room there are only a few people, so why aren’t you preaching in the Gurdwara?


DD: We have no need to preach.  Whoever needs something comes to us by themself.


SARDAR JI:  So you have got everything in order to give it?


DD: yes, we have everything.  He is the Giver and has given us everything.  The ones who come to us, He gives to them as well.  Whoever is to receive, then that meeting is as per destiny – Sanjog.  We didn’t tell anyone to come here.


SARDAR JI:  He is the Giver, so why do we need a middle-man like you?  “Kishan Bishan Na dhiyau” – I don’t need Krishans and Vishnus, I only need God. – Guru Gobind Singh Ji.


DD:  Bhai  Gurdas ji wrote that the Guru is the middleman to God, “Har Dargah Ka Baseet.”  BrahmGiani is God, is higher than Krishna and Vishnu and all other demi-gods.


SARDAR JI:  Guru Gobind Singh ji gave the Gur-Gaddi (Guruship) to the Guru Granth Sahib Ji.


DD: This is another huge incorrect teaching in Sikhism, that Guru Gobind Singh ji gave the Gur-Gaddi to the Guru Granth Sahib Ji.  The Gurbani was always the Guru, not just when Guru Gobind Singh ji supposedly made it so.  Gurbani itself says, “Guru Ha Bani Bani ha Guru.” – The Bani is the Guru, the Guru is the Bani – Guru Ram Das Ji.


SARDAR JI:  Look I am not accepting that a human body can be the Guru (Deh-Dari Guru).


DD:  That’s right a body can never be the Guru.  The body is perishable so is part of Maya.  The Param Jyot (divine light of God) is the Guru.   And where is this Divine Light going to become manifest?


SARDAR JI:  Its going to manifest in a person.  But, that person needs to have the right deeds.


DD:  That’s right.  The one who does Bandagi (divine slavery to God), then their deeds are going to become right.  The one who controls his five thieves, desires and defeats Maya, their deeds are going to be right.


SARDAR JI: Everything Guru Gobind Singh Ji wrote is GurMat, Gurbani.  You are just picking and choosing the lines that suit your purpose.   You don’t accept the verse by Kabir ji not to eat fish and you have told your sangat to eat meat and take off their 5Ks.


DD:  No.  Absolutely not.  We haven’t told anyone what to eat or not to eat,  what to wear turban or not to wear.  That’s their own choice, we only tell of the inner compliance.


J (Sardar ji’s son): No one told us to do those things.


SARDAR JI:  Then you must be brain-washed.


J: Look we are not fake, before you came we were doing our Naam simran as a sangat and there was peace.  Since you came there has been arguments and tension.




J:  Sounds like an argument when you raise your voice.


SARDAR JI:  You youngsters just try and twist things.  First, thing is if you have courage you should be in the Gurdwara saying what you believe.  But, you are scared and hiding.

Why don’t you go out and tell this at the Gurdwara?


J: Because they attack us.


SARDAR JI:  Must be some reason for that.


J:  At the Gurdwara they give time to those preach what fits into their beliefs.  They are the ones who are picking and choosing Gurbani as it suits them.


SARDAR JI:  If you are preaching according to GurMat then you shouldn’t have any fear of telling them. If someone is doing wrong, then you have to tell them.  If you don’t they will always remain in the dark.


OM Ji:  Yes, but you can only change others spiritually once you have changed yourself.  You have to be  complete within.


SARDAR JI: There is no one who is complete.  Only Guru Gobind Singh ji is complete, there is no one walking around now who is complete.  “Khalsa mero roop ha khaas.  Khalsa ho ma karay nivaas.”   – The Khalsa is my special form.  I reside within the Khalsa. – Guru Gobind Singh Ji.


DD: Sardar Ji, the Khalsa is the one who is complete.  The Khalsa is nothing less than a  Brahmgiani.  Guru Gobind Singh Ji made five more complete Khalsas like himself.  If ten stood up or 1000 stood up he would have made them into complete Khalsa as well.   But, they didn’t stand up and give their head.  The Guru is such a being that he can look at someone and fill them with Amrit.  He filled those five and made them complete when they gave everything to Him.  He called them, “Khalsa mera satguru poora. Khalsa mera sajjan soora – The Khalsa is my complete Satguru.  The Khalsa is my brave friend.”   Now tell me this, which Guru is standing in the world making the five that represent Sikhs in the religious activities?  Only a Brahmgiani can make another Brahmgiani, only Khalsa can make another Khalsa.  So which Brahmgiani is making the five (Punj Pyare) nowadays?   Infact, the opposite is true now, no Brahmgiani is making those five into Khalsa.  And that is a great offence to Guru Gobind Singh ji’s teachings.   You tell me are the Punj Pyare in place after place around the world complete Brahmgianis?


SARDAR JI:  Yes, they are.


DD:  There isn’t even one who is complete Khalsa, a Brahmgiani.


SARDAR JI:  But only a Brahmgiani can recognise another. So how can you tell?


DD:  That is what we are telling you, that there isn’t even one.


SARDAR JI:  So you can tell?


DD:  We didn’t come here to talk about ourself.  You only came to have an argument.


SARDAR JI: That is your feeling, your opinion.


DD:  This is not a feeling, this is Truth.


SARDAR JI: So if that is Truth, then everyone else is telling lies?


DD: You can’t lock up the Guru inside 1430 pages at the Gurdwara.  Isn’t the Guru sitting inside your heart and his heart and her heart?  Isn’t the Guru pervading the air, the oceans and all around?


SARDAR JI:  Yes, Guru is all around.  But you can’t make Guru Granth Sahib appear here, can you?   You can’t recite all 1430 pages right here, right now can you?


DD:  It’s not about memorising Gurbani.  BrahmGian (divine wisdom) doesn’t come like that.  Gurdwaras are full of Gianis reading reciting and memorising , but none of them are BrahmGianis.  BrahmGian comes once you are complete.  Have merged into the Divine Light of Akal Purakh, then you are blessed with BrahmGian – Divine wisdom of God.  Just by reading Gurbani one does not become Brahmgiani, otherwise there would be thousands of them walking around.  You have do what Gurbani says, not just read it and memorise it.


SARDAR JI:  But, first you will have to read it, only then can you apply it.


DD:  That is what we are saying.  You can spend your whole life reading and re-reading thinking that is purifying you, but you will never become complete like that.


SARDAR JI:  Yes, we should put it into practise.


DD:  Its not about we SHOULD put it into practise, just put it into practise.  Start doing it right now.  Otherwise, you just tell others they should put it into practise, without having put it into practise yourself.  Ask yourself where am I sitting, have I earned Gurbani?




SARDAR JI:  Guru Gobind Singh ji made Sant and Sipahee – sant and soldier.  Sant by itself can’t survive – look at Guru Arjun Dev ji – he was martyred.  And His son Guru HarGobind Singh ji had to pick up arms.


DD:  That is the biggest mistake in preaching at Gurdwaras, that they think the Gurus and Sikhs made sacrifices for the sake of their future generations, for the seva of keeping the Gurdwaras going.  So people now are told to follow Sikhism as they owe something for the past sacrifices that were made for them.  The Guru Jis made sacrifice for the seva of God, they followed the Hukam that came to them for the seva of complete Truth (Puran Sat).  When Guru Arjun Dev ji sat on the hot plate, God was showing through him, that there is so much POWER in Puran Sat that not even a hot plate can do anything.   Do you understand?   By saying that Sant by itself was weak and unable to prtoect himslef and that is why sixth Guru had to pick up arms you have not understood the power of Puran Sat that enabled the fifth Guru to sit on the hot plate in the first place.


SARDAR JI:  you haven’t understood me, that is I what I am saying.  That Guru Arjun Dev ji showed us to accept God’s will is sweet.  And Guru HarGobind ji showed us when troubled times come and Sants aren’t allowed to live in peace then we have to teach them a lesson.  This happens again and again in Sikh history.


DD:  You are changing what you said, but anyway you are right that pattern is what happened in Sikh history.  The Guru’s showed the world that no matter what happens realise that there is so much unlimited power in Puran Sat.  But, don’t use the history of the Guru’s to justify misuse of the warrior side to be aggressive in the name of protecting Sants.  We are not living in a time where Sants are protected anymore by Sikhs, infact it’s the other way around, people are swearing and cursing at the Sants.


SARDAR JI:  So what if people keep swearing and cursing, the real Bhagat will just carry on doing his Bhagti.


DD:  The lesson to learn from Sikh history and the martydoms of the Gurus and close Sikhs, is that each and every Shabad of Gurbani has SO MUCH power, that it is capable of making each and every Sikh into a SatGuru.


SARDAR JI:  Only the ten Guru’s were SatGurus.


DD:  No, the ten Guru’s were called as Avatar by Gurbani.  Calling Nanak a Guru or SatGuru, is actually less than he actually was.  He was Avatar (God incarnate).  The one who realises SAT within, that God-part is called the SAT GURU, not the body.






SARDAR JI:  Guru Gobind Singh ji gave us Rehat.


DD:  Follow the inner compliance, all other compliance is following the ways of the Brahmins (rituals – Bipren Kee Reet) – The Rehat of Maya.


SARDAR JI:  No, a Sikh doesn’t follow Bipren Kee Reet (ritualistic way of the Brahmins).


DD: If you follow the ways of Maya that is what is meant by Bipren Kee Reet, (it doesn’t mean you don’t follow Hinduism).  Sikh means disciple, it doesn’t mean the one who has merely kept a turban and grown a beard.


SARDAR JI: If a “mona” (cut hair person) keeps a turban and grows a beard tomorrow but still does bad deeds, he is still not a Sikh.


DD:  This is your mistake in calling someone a “mona” and regarding yourself as a Sikh.

In Guru Gobind Singh ji’s Darbar (royal court), there were people of all backgounds.   Even all the demi-gods (Hindu devi-devtas) used to sit there (in astral form).  So why in the Gurdwara’s are they preaching “I am a Sikh, he is a Hindu that is a Muslim” and so on?


DD: Let us clear one thing before we go on, if you think we told the sangat to cut their hair or eat meat, then you are mistaken.  We did not know even what they looked like when they emailed us.   We only have one thing to do, to serve Puran Sat.  We don’t look at is that person a Hindu or Muslim or black or white.  What about the whites that have come to us or the blacks?   We never looked at the outside at all.  Neither did Guru Gobind Singh ji.



SARDAR JI: I regard that one a Sikh of Guru gobind Singh ji who doesn’t believe in caste and wears his Bana and does what he says and bows to no person.







DD: Ok you tell me, Bani says that the Brahmgiani becomes dust of everyone’s feet, “brahm giani sagal kee reena.”   So which place shouldn’t we bow?  How can we not bow anywhere – tell me where HE is not?


SARDAR JI:  Guru Gobind Singh ji said we are not to bow to any one.


DD: That is not in bani.


SARDAR JI:  Well it is written by Guru Gobind Singh ji, I have read it somewhere.  Let’s take a Brahmgiani, a MahaPurakh, let’s see where he bows then.


DD:  Yes, a Brahmgiani will bow everywhere and anywhere, even to a worm in shit.


SARDAR JI: No he wont, I haven’t seen any MahaPurakh do that.


DD:  So don’t you believe in Gurbani?  You started off saying we have to believe in Gurbani, otherwise we are going against our Guru.


SARDAR JI: I do believe in gurbani.


DD:  No you don’t, if you did you would do what it says and bow and become “sagal kee reena – dust of all.”


SARDAR JI:  no, no, we shouldn’t be bowing here, there and everywhere, just bow in one place – Guru Granth Sahib.


DD:  That’s what we are showing you, you are mistaken, that’s not what Gurbani is asking you to do.  Brahmgian doesn’t come until you earn the Gurbani.


SARDAR JI:  no, no, you just take one or two lines and misuse them.


DD:  This is just your ego refusing to listen.  Look at him (Om ji – cut hair) , is he not a Sikh?  Look at her (uncovered har – no chuni), look at them (rest of sangat),  are they not a Sikh?   Are they not disciples following the path to God?


SARDAR JI: How do you know what they are inisde?   You can’t tell.


OM JI:  He can tell.


SARDAR JI:  No one can reach Guru Nanak’s level.


OM JI: Yes they can.


DD:  The soul has no connection with the body or the caste, colour, religion etc of the body.  The soul only has connection with the Hirdha, that’s what all the Brahmgianis and Gurus and scriptures have taught us.  Its all inside, the inner compliance to Gurbani, not outside. God doesn’t look at the outside, not even if you are walking around naked. God only looks at what you are inside.  He doesn’t look at if you are a Hindu, Muslim, low caste or high caste, man or women.  In Guru Gobind Singh ji’s Darbar all kinds of people came, nor did he force anyone to keep outer forms. No Guru ever did that.  Guru tests you from inside and accepts you.  You can do whatever you like on the outside, hang upside down in the name of religion, but you will get nothing.


SARDAR JI:  But Gurbani talks about a pure vessel.


DD: That vessel is your inside spirit – your astral body, not your physical body or attachment to religion, caste, colour.  We have nothing to do with outer compliance.


SARDAR JI:  Guru gave us outer Rehats.


DD: He didn’t, ask him yourself and tell us what he says. [Guru Gobind Singh Ji created an army, they had army uniform and army code of conduct.  But army living was not for the massess and it defintely wasn’t part of the spiritual practise until much later on when Sikhism , Hinduism and British Raj all mixed in together to created the man-made religion we have now.  Read this website to see how modern Sikhism came about . ]


SARDAR JI:  -laughs!  You can say what you want, I am firm in my faith.   We have to obey what our Guru says.  Follow the Hukam of the Guru.


NJ: Everything is hukam, eating, breathing, laughing, this discussion.


SARDAR JI: follow Rehats – that is the Hukam.


NJ: its easy to wear a turban and be a strict vegetarian.  Its hard to follow the inner compliance.  I don’t follow anyone, I follow God.


DD:  If the punj pyare who gave her the real divine inner amrit then she would have got everything spiritual from them, but she didn’t.


SARDAR JI:  The Amrit ceremony she attended was like entering school, then you take one step at a time.


DD:  They did everything, studied everything, were dedicated to Gurdwara seva and still got nothing spiritual, just ended up in ego.


SARDAR JI:  Its hard to follow the Rehats, I can see why they gave it up.


NJ:  No it was easy to follow.


DD:  I have met people who are have been following amritdhari life 20, 30 , 40 years and say they got nowhere.  They get the GurParsaad and then say now we are in peace.  In the old days when sangat came they would have to serve sangat for many years before getting blessings.  You think in the Gurdwara that you prepare amrit in a bowl of water and add sugar and say some bani and give it out and follow some external disciplines and that is it.   That’s not how it is.


SARDAR JI:  We are saying that the Amrit ceremony is just an admission into a school.


DD:  The GurParsaadi Game is a game of a second, get the Grace and go to God very fast.  No delay if you surrender completely, mind, body and wealth.   GurParsaad is not a hostage of time and patience to reach God. People don’t know that, its not preached.


SARDAR JI:  We do know that, if you do Paat (read Gurbani) you can read it.


DD: We don’t do Paat  and people don’t know that.  We were talking about what is happening in the Gurdwaras.  Recently in Canada, tens of thousands of dollars were donated, management fought, when the committee was replaced the money was missing.  Even the Tenth Guru never went to Harmandir Sahib.


SARDAR JI:  Yes, it had become corrupt.


DD: And is still corrupt and so are many Gurdwaras even now.  That’s why the youngsters don’t go to the Gurdwaras now and the ones who do have got nowhere spiritually by going there.


SARDAR JI: A real Sant cant explain what God is like.


DD: That is wrong, if that was true then then how did the Guru Granth Sahib ji come into being?  A Brahmgiani can’t explain fully, but he can direct you in what to do – inner compliance.  The ones who get you attached to external Rehat are not obeying the GurMat in Gurbani, they are not complete, not in Divine Light and misleading the masses.


SARDAR JI:  What Guru Gobind Singh Ji gave us on the outside no one else can give us.


DD:  What Guru Gobind Singh Ji gave was for the ones who were fighting oppression.  What oppression are you fighting that you still need weapons and 5Ks and uniform and outer compliance?


SARDAR JI:  Maybe you have misunderstood what we are saying.


DD:  We haven’t misunderstood anything, we are delivering the Puran Sat – complete Truth only.  We are telling you the Gyan that you need to know.  Our own biological sister had been doing paat all her life – 40 years, and she came to us saying she has no peace of mind.  She stayed for a month and said she had found her peace.  We are not against you, you bring five pooran Khalsa here, Brahmgianis, or just even one, and we will take their shit and rub it on our own face.   Can you?  This is why people aren’t getting anywhere spiritually.  We get emails from people saying they got nowhere after taking Amrit ceremony.   We say go back to ask your Punj Pyare why you have no peace, ask if they are a Brahmgiani, ask if they gave you the GurPrasaad.


SARDAR JI:  Taking amrit is just entering the school.  They don’t have to be perfect.


DD:  But once they enter the school if there is still no one to teach them then what use is that school?


SARDAR JI:  My own story, its been 36 years since I’ve been reading Gurbani, I’m OK, don’t need anything else.  Mind gets stronger.  Mind goes away from bad deeds.


DD:  Reading Bani is good, by doing so you then go and do good deeds and accumulate them and reduce bad deeds.  Also we have seen our past 12-15 lives and we read a lot of Gurbani.  But Bani says, “prabh ka simran sabh te ucha” – so we should do Naam Simran, not just be left at reading Gurbani forever, lifetime after lifetime.  Gurbani asks us to become the lowest ashumbleness is the key to the Dargah.   You say no you wont bow to anyone, but when you clean shoes at Gurdwara, are you not bowing to everyone’s feet?


SARDAR JI:  We bow to Guru Granth Sahib ji, we don’t bow to criminals?


DD:  Look at Kabir Ji , a thief came to his house and he told the police, no this is my relative. This is in Gurbani.  He could see God even in a thief.  Why cant you?



SARDAR JI: He was very highly spiritual.


DD:  And that’s what you want to reach as well, not stuck in Dharam Khand reading Bani for 36 years.  You came here to complain your children have cut their hair and eat meat and our out of your control.  You didn’t come to learn, that’s all you wanted – just to have a discussion in order to complain.


SARDAR JI:  We are not complaining, we have everything.


DD:  If you have everything, then you would be complete and talking divine wisdom of a BrahmGiani Sardar Ji.  We are talking complete Truth with you.  But, yet you want to keep on in shallow discussions.


SARDAR JI:  Well why did they cut their hair when Gurbani says that God has beautiful long hair. (Baba ji explained that God has no form, but when the Bhagat sees God in himself, he no longer sees it as his own hair, but is seeing it as God’s hair.)


DD:  Gurbani also says it makes no difference if you have long hair or short.  Don’t people who have cut hair reach God?  Are there no Brahmgiani’s in Islam or Christianity or Buddhists?


SARDAR JI: We don’t belong to them. You are rejecting Guru Gobind Singh Ji’s bana (uniform).


DD :  Again you go back to Us and Them when Guru Gobind Singh ji said, “recognise the human race as one – Manas kee jaat sabh ek pehchaanbo.”  We are rejecting false preaching, not what Guru Gobind Singh ji did at his time and place for that situation as per God’s Hukam.  We are rejecting the false wisdom that has meant you have not been able to find anything in spirituality.  You reach the stage of “Atam Ras”, become a Khalsa like that and tell us if Guru Gobind Singh ji doesn’t come and do Dandauth Bandhana to you.


SARDAR JI: Only God knows.   Everyone only knows there own state of being.


DD:  All the sangat here, your family members, are all in peace in their hirdha.  So be happy with that and let them do whatever they are doing.  Instead of contantly pointing out what you think is their mistakes.


SARDAR JI:  Everybody asks questions of the one who is on the way to God.  Guru Arjun Dev Ji’s sacrifice was followed by Guru Hargobind ji creating an army.  We need the outer side.


DD:  Jesus also made a huge sacrifice, but no such army was created afterwards.  Did his path die out?  They are the largest religion in the world.


SARDAR JI:  They preach a lot.


DD: He made a great sacrifice and they tell the world.  Sikh Guru’s made great sacrifices but the Sikhs threw it all in the well.  Sikhs don’t know how to tell the Truth, they know how to swear and curse and do wrong deeds at the Gurdwaras.  Go and tell your committees.


SARDAR JI: I am not in the committee.  You go and tell them.


DD:  We have no need to go to the Gurdwara, nor have we gone, nor do we go.  Our  hirdha is a Gurdwara, Akal Purakh resides within it.  We have full faith in Him.  Complete Light, manifested Light.  He is residing in each and every cell.  We have full faith in Gurbani and that whatever it says is 100% Truth.  That’s what we followed and did, that is what we are doing now.  And that is what we are teaching all the children here.  So what is the mistake you see in what we are doing?


SARDAR JI:  That maybe your faith.  I have my own faith.


DD:  So you keep what you believe in to yourself and let the children believe in what they want.  You just need to understand that until you are experiencing Atam Ras you are not Khalsa.  You need to defeat Maya, only Brahmgiani is Khalsa.   No one bows to the body, we bow to the Guru.  The Jyot within.  Even bowing to Guru Granth Sahib and thinking of it just as a holy scripture is wrong.  See Gurbani as Guru – “Waho Waho Bani Nirankar ha – Wondrous Wondrous Bani – it is the Formless One”, bow to it with that understanding.  You can’t lock Guru (God) up in 1430 pages.


SARDAR JI: Yes, we agree.  Bow to the Truth – Sat.


DD:  Gurbani says to bow to the feet of the ones who do Naam Simran. So there is nothing wrong in bowing to each other, to lower our heads infront of the ones who do Naam Simran.  So the one in whom the SAT manifests is the SAT GURU.   The Brahmgiani is the dust of everyone’s feet.  The whole creation is higher for Him.


SARDAR JI:  No one is higher than Guru Granth Sahib.


DD:  Gurbani itself says, “Brahmgiani is creator of all – Brahmgiani sagal srist ka karta”.  So is the Creator or creation higher?


SARDAR JI:  Creator is.


DD:  So Brahmgiani is higher.


SARDAR JI:  Guru Granth Sahib ji is higher.


DD:  Gurbani says Brahmgiani is creator and Creator is higher.  This is what Gurbani is saying, so why not bow to the BrahmGiani?


SARDAR JI: We should only bow to where we get something from.


DD:  So I’ll bow to you as I am getting somethng from you in this discussion.


SARDAR JI:  No, bow to Guru Granth Sahib ji it is a treasure chest.


DD:  There you go again,  keep bowing to Guru Granth Sahib ji but not putting into practise what it is saying.  Then you are offender of your Guru.  Come out of this huge illusion and you will be better off.





SARDAR JI: There are fights in the Gurdwaras where they keep arguing.


DD:  A place is not a Gurdwara, that is another illusion.  This hirdha is the Guru Dwara – place of God.


SARDAR JI:  I don’t regard the ones fighting in Gurdwaras as Sikhs.


DD: so why do you keep associating with them, why don’t you kick them out, why do you keep voting for them?


SARDAR JI:  The ones who get votes are not Sikhs.


DD:  Your Gurdwara is run by people who you personally voted for, are they not Sikhs now?  We gave you the example of the Gurdwara in Canada – thousands of dollars in donations, committees fighting, when new committee came only $22 left in the bank account.  So where were the Punj Pyare then to sort it out?   How is the Gurdwara they built going to help anyone?


SARDAR JI:  Falsehood should be shot down, Truth should  prevail.


DD: You know both sides of the argument, when it suits you you decide to go towards Sikh tradtional thoughts and conform to your Sikh society, when it doesn’t suit you you start claiming Truth should prevail.  You don’t know how to find the Truth.  You want to follow what the tradition is in the world instead of following the Truth wholeheartedly.  That is your problem.


SARDAR JI:  That is not my problem.  Just follow Guru Gobind Singh Ji’s rehat.


DD:  Yes the inner compliance of Atam Ras.   When people take the “amrit” ceremony, why do you call them Amritdhari?


SARDAR JI:  I call them Gur Ka Sikh.   Amritdhari is when they are same on the inside as outside.


DD:  same on inside and outisde means they are Brahmgiani then, living in Sach Khand – not Pakhand – hypocrisy.  But, Sikhs take “Amrit” at the ceremony and call themselves Amritdhari!!!!


SARDAR JI:  No they are just entering the school, they are now a Sikh of the Guru- Gur Ka Sikh.


DD:  They are not even a Sikh of the Guru until they obey what the Guru is telling them to do.  Not just bowing to Guru Granth Sahib and pleasing Sikh tradtitions and going along with everyone else.  But, actually putting into practise what Gurbani is saying.  What does Nit Nem (daily practise) mean to you?


SARDAR JI: Firstly, it is the one who “Gur Satgur ka jo sikh a kaaiyaa so balkay ut har naam dhiaayaa – That one is a Sikh of the Guru who gets up early and meditates on Naam (Naam Dhiaayaa)” – Guru Ram Das ji.


DD:  Do you know what Naam Dhiaayaa means?  The one who surrenders everything to Naam.  The one who surrenders within to the Naam, then Akal Purakh Himself manifests inside him.  Then Maya doesn’t even come near to him.   Then these kind of discussions don’t even take place because these questions don’t even come into your mind.   If you think by taking “amrit ceremony” wearing uniform and endless re-reading of bani is going to get you to God, you are wrong.  My nitnem is 10 hours of Naam Simran a day, not re-reading “Prabh ka simran sabh te ucha – Naam simran of God is the highest” in Sukhmani day after day after day, but never actually doing Naam Simran.  You get complete God when you get the GurParsaad, without that you get nothing no matter what religious ways you are following.   When you get the GurParsaad you enter Karam Khand, realm of Grace, and the fight with your five thieves begins and they flee.  Then your fire of strong desires, hopes and wishes is extinguished.  Then you go to Sach Khand, the Realm of Truth and are blessed with sacred vision, Darshan, of Akal Purakh.  This is following the Puran Sachyari Rehat – the compliance to become completely Truthful.  Then you realise Akal Purakh, otherwise you never do.  Then you receive complete divine wisdom , Puran Brahm Gyan.  This is what Gurbani says, EVERYTHNIG ELSE is falsehood.  Rest is just sheep following sheep, wether you have a following of 100,000 or 200,000.  IT IS ALL NONSENSE.  IT IS ALL BULLSHIT.


SARDAR JI:  Laughs loudly.  You are speaking in anger!


DD:  We tell you complete Truth and you think it is anger!  If we were in anger, could we have given you this much divine wisdom – GYAN?  Some listen easily with love, some need to be told off.  Some need to be hit again and again.


SARDAR JI:  You said a person cant control their five thieves.  They can.


DD:  NO THEY CANT WITHOUT GURPARSAAD,  WITHOUT GURPARSAAD NOTHING HAPPENS.   Only until Haumai (ego) dies, then there is liberation from Maya (Jiwan Mukti), otherwise whole life is wasted in ego.   “Haumai bujay ta dar sujay – Haumai is extinguished then God’s Court is realised.”


SARDAR JI:  Look when a person comes into religious life, they have to start from the bottom.


DD:  How long will you stay at the bottom?  It’s not like that, it is GurParsaadi Game, you get Eternal Blessings from the Sant and then its fast spiritual progress after that, not sitting at the bottom for lifetimes.   Gurbani tells us where to get GurParsaad from, from the Sants.  If Punj Pyare had GurParasaad to give then the whole Sikh world would be ferried across by now.


SARDAR JI:  The five thieves, people say they can be destroyed.   No, they just stop hurting us.  But, we need maya to live.


DD: Sardar ji, you don’t know what Maya is.


SARDAR JI: There are different types of Maya.  Family is maya, greed for things is maya, lots of Maya things.


DD:  Three parts to Maya – Rajo (comforts), Sato (goodness) and Tamo (ignorance).  Whilst under Maya, stay in Sato part, and accumulate good deeds, decrease bad deeds and stop chasing comforts.  Then you get the GurParsaad and simran goes inside you and cleans your spirit body, opens chakras and union.  This is a GurParsaddi Game.


SARDAR JI:  Firstly, bani doesn’t sit inside us – people find it hard to digest.  If it does become part of us, then that one doesn’t go around telling others about his state.


DD: Gurbani says, gather together and spend and share this spiritual wealth – “kaho karcho rul mil bhai.”  You say it cant be shared, Gurbani says it can never run out so share it.


SARDAR JI: This is the Game of Maya and we need maya to live.


DD:  Then Guru Nanak Dev ji would have just sat at home making a living and kept God to himself.


SARDAR JI: No Guru Nanak went out to teach the message.


DD:  But, you just said that the one who has God cant tell it to others!!!!


SARDAR JI:  That was Guru Nanak, and no one can become Guru Nanak.


DD: Who told you that?


SARDAR JI: I am saying it.


DD:  Guru Nanak is the Jyot (Divine Light.  Baba Ji said that Nanak=Truth.)  So what where all the Ten Gurus and the Punj Khalsas?


SARDAR JI: They were Supreme soul (ParmAtma)’s form as well.


DD:  So how can you say that no one can become Supreme Soul as well?  They keep on coming into the world.  “Har Jug Jug bhagat Upaaiyaa Paij rakhdaa aaiyaa ram raje – God’s Bhagats come in each and every age and God protects their honour.”     Sardar Ji, it’s not like what you think.  Guru Nanak Ji is the Jyot and that same Jyot is in you and in everyone.  This Jyot is not separate from each other.


SARDAR JI:  I understand that God’s Light is in everyone, but you are twisting my meaning.  You say what you understand, I’ll say what I understand.


DD: We don’t say what we understand.  We only say the way it is, and there is only one way.  What HE makes us say, we are only saying that.


SARDAR JI:  Guru Granth Sahib ji is bigger than us, we just bow to it and get instructions from there.  There is no need to go and start bowing to each and every heart that has Jyot – (God’s light – soul) in it.


DD:  Have we told you to do anything but what Gurbani says?  Gurbani says Naam Simran is the highest seva, so just do that.  We don’t need to say anything else to you know. What is going to happen will happen by itself now.  We have not done anything bad to you, nor have we said anything bad to you.  We have only spoken to you on how to unite with God.  There is no higher deed than uniting someone with God and there is no worse sin than breaking someone from God.


SARDAR JI: Yes, just do what our Guru tells us to. We are not saying anyone is wrong or right, it is not our place to say, they know if they are wrong and they need to straighten themselves out.


DD:  Sardar ji, we have only goal to unite the children with God, nothing else.  You can see infront of yourself their progress.  We haven’t got any other agenda.  We didn’t know they cut their hair or started eating meat.   We never told them what to do at that level, only to unite with God.


SARDAR JI: We are all masters of our own field.  God watches over everyone.  As a father we want our children to be happy and well.


DD:  See your family as your sangat and serve them like that and you will be out of family attachment thief.  But, if you see them as your family and try to control them and what they can and cannot do, then we have not seen any family who stayed together like that.  Only love and service can win.   You are so blessed that you have children like these who do Naam simran and serve others.  Don’t think of the outside things.  You can’t force your views on them.   Everyone’s destiny is unique, everything happens as per HIS Hukam, not yours.  If we fight with HIS Hukam then we lose.   We humbly request you surrender your mind, body, wealth into the service of the Guru and everything will come to you.  And if there are more births ahead for you, then they will be comfortable as well.  Thankyou, we bow to your feet.


SARDAR JI: Thankyou ji, Waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji kee fateh!

[ Please also read  Discussion About Keeping Hair . ]